tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2784015174011139.post6663967345906036221..comments2023-07-27T04:58:22.330-04:00Comments on Eastern Christian Books: Tim Kelleher on the Niceno-Constantinopolitan CreedDr. Adam DeVillehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06505315831493271933noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2784015174011139.post-85717888275853861362012-05-11T14:09:50.183-04:002012-05-11T14:09:50.183-04:00What a terrific interview. Thanks to Tim Kelleher ...What a terrific interview. Thanks to Tim Kelleher and Dr. Adam DeVille for this offering. Unfortunately, rather than discuss the interview here on the blog, Mr. Ochlophobist seems bent on knocking a trailer for a film he has never seen. Clearly, he is unschooled in these matters in order for him to refer to Luke Timothy Johnson, one of the world's preeminent New Testament scholars, as "someone who sounds like he is so white that he would be a fund manager for Morgan Stanley." A ludicrous and racist statement. I have watched Kelleher's film, The Creed, and I was transfixed -- the philosophical and theological ideas discussed were so heady that I often had to pause or rewind to more fully absorb what was being said. I would describe myself as an agnostic when it come to the Creed and therefore find it difficult to recite -- but this film gave me pause. I wish it were longer, at least twice as long, in order to hear more from each of the speakers, heavy hitters to say the least. Of course the film looks to discuss the social relevance of The Creed! If it's not relevant, why bother!Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10411193433224402122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2784015174011139.post-46878985849721663432012-05-07T11:44:04.639-04:002012-05-07T11:44:04.639-04:00E B,
Why then are Mormons ... accused of not bein...E B,<br /><br /><i>Why then are Mormons ... accused of not being Christians because of this precise belief?</i><br /><br />Christians who object to the doctrine of <i>theosis</i> do not know their own tradition and their own teaching as well as they ought. However, if I am not mistaken, the Mormon teaching on <i>theosis</i> differs significantly from the Orthodox/Catholic teaching on <i>theosis</i>. In addition, Mormonism differs significantly from orthodox Christianity on the core doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation.<br /><br />Whether that makes Mormonism a heterodox variety of Christianity, or an entirely non-Christian religion, is perhaps a matter of semantics. But there can be no doubt that traditional orthodox Christianity and Mormonism are two very different faiths.Chris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2784015174011139.post-17236383619528309762012-05-07T10:32:30.434-04:002012-05-07T10:32:30.434-04:00I find it most interesting that the first thing yo...I find it most interesting that the first thing you say about it is "And what does the Creed say? Well, in a way, it can be distilled to those words of St. Athanasius: God became human, so that humans might become God." <br />Why then are Mormons (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) accused of not being Christians because of this precise belief? <br />Just wondering.<br />www.conservativemormonmom.blogspot.comE Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11002189705876443220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2784015174011139.post-39411058585647677082012-05-07T10:29:09.526-04:002012-05-07T10:29:09.526-04:00So the Ochlophobist must produce his own book or f...So the Ochlophobist must produce his own book or film before he has standing to criticize this one? It seems to me that he has elaborated in quite specific terms why he finds it lacking. If you don't agree perhaps you could say why.<br /><br />As it stands, your comment is one of the clumsier <i>ad hominems</i> that I have seen.Chris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2784015174011139.post-26978262067618133142012-05-07T08:32:18.833-04:002012-05-07T08:32:18.833-04:00Mr. Ochlophobist, Could you direct us to your film...Mr. Ochlophobist, Could you direct us to your film or to your study of the Creed?carsonDLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14644712426884077286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2784015174011139.post-12096369939925137662012-05-04T23:55:40.174-04:002012-05-04T23:55:40.174-04:00Well let's see - it starts with an utterly exa...Well let's see - it starts with an utterly exaggerated statement (the one above mentioned) that clearly evokes desperation at being taken as relevant and/or socially consequential. It ends with the above described flamboyance of asserting that First Things is going to unlock the treasure of the Creed for you should you watch a 30 minute video which can't possibly have much more than snippets regarding what Christians believe to be the most important truths mankind can ever contemplate. And in the middle you get the sort of video aesthetic one would expect from a commercial for one of the more, uhm, popular "documentaries" on the History Channel. The rhythmic use of the bells, drums, and instruments timed perfectly with the sort of carthartic-tension tone of the snippet interviewee voices conveys a very kitsch sense of urgency. It drums at you, on a very cheap emotive level "this is important, this is important, this is important." Thank God no traditional Christian liturgy, East or West, makes use of such aesthetics when reciting the Creed. And no, I don't expect Christian presentations of the meaning of the Creed for the general public to be liturgical in their aesthetic, but I do expect them to be grown up and not appeal to the more base instincts of entertainment addicted masses who apparently can't be expected to watch to 30 minutes on the Creed without being titillated in this manner. The words used in those snippets also are grasping at relevance by countering apparent irrelevance - so in 2 and a half minutes we get introduced conceptually to the ideas of the Creed being "dry" and "rote." Seriously? Talk about pandering. And someone who sounds like he is so white that he would be a fund manager for Morgan Stanley if he hadn't instead become a theologian says the words "what the hell" in a tone that conveys he is very, very aware of the gravitas of what he just said and that is is just a little bit naughty, but not too much. The cadence of that last line "God. became. man. so. that. men. might. become. God." is such that sounds very know-it-allish - or at least boyish in a manner that is embarrassing when coming from an adult's mouth. But most of them spoke with voices that had the artificial seriousness of a TA teaching a freshman level class or that of a politician being interviewed. A commercialized emphaticism we might say. This all reminds me of those videos I had to watch in youth group as a teenager explaining how abstinence was exciting and not boring and chaste kids were having a gee whiz golly good time, and could even be trendy and cool in x, y, and z ways despite their lack of body fluid exchange practices. There may have been some truth to that, but the medium sent a message of desperation for relevance and acceptance, despite the superficial presentation of confidence. Plus this, like all virtually all Christian media of this nature, is just so 15 years ago. Not that I expect much more from First Things these days - they've been desperately trying to figure out what they are since RJN died.Ochlophobist https://www.blogger.com/profile/13751003558600087713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2784015174011139.post-8139475452021973512012-05-04T21:33:15.794-04:002012-05-04T21:33:15.794-04:00This is too vague to be constructive. What in part...This is too vague to be constructive. What in particular is cringe-worthy? What is wrong with "self-confident aesthetics"? Why is "the whole video...just embarrassing"?Dr. Adam DeVillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06505315831493271933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2784015174011139.post-33506736719407438142012-05-04T19:00:06.132-04:002012-05-04T19:00:06.132-04:00It is really hard for me to imagine the 30 minute ...It is really hard for me to imagine the 30 minute long video being worth watching when the trailer, almost 1/10th the length of the actual video, is so godawful:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hjO7kP96TNI<br /><br />I wrote with regard to the trailer this to some friends:<br /><br />When considering our age, one of the things that confuses me most is that seemingly intelligent people, in droves, seemed to have lost their ability to cringe, and they then go through with public actions which could have otherwise been prevented. <br /><br />The video has the "perfect" ending, when, after the stern drumbeat and silly wanna-be middle easternish music throughout the vidio, the relief of an angelic sounding choir pipes in, and then you see the "www.firstthings.com" on the screen, and then a slick white guy voice tells you to "unlock the treasure." Quite the self-confident aesthetic there. The whole video is just embarrassing, starting with their assertion at the beginning regarding the creed - "its words spoken by billions of human beings each day." Uh, no, not by any stretch of a sane imagination.Ochlophobist https://www.blogger.com/profile/13751003558600087713noreply@blogger.com